Big Power Figures & Spark Plugs

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BRMS
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Post by BRMS »

I know one thing. There was NO rubber on the track. I couldnt get any traction. You could see concrete is was so thin. better luck next time. ps. burgermass, ill have measurments monday. soo exhausted! eh yi yi
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Post by Bindegal »

Digging around I found this list of spark plugs comparing part numbers for Denso, NGK and others: http://www.rsmubb.com/t1.htm /Allan

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Post by Bugermass »

well a few posts back I made a big mistake sayin that the BKR8 and 9 are resistor type.. well first of all there isn't a BKR8 or 9, I've been buying them from a shop here in town and he kept calling them BKRs and I never bohtered to even look at it :oops: .. They are the 5671 and 5672 series plugs I've been using, and they are non-resistor and WILL cause issues ina K series.. I figured this out(felt like an idiot), cause a buddy of mine has K series I was trying to tune and the K pro wouldn't datalog once the car would start. I kept thinking the plugs I bought were resistor type BKR8e cause thats what the guy told me where I bought them and I never looked them up.. after having a conversation with dave one day about a tuning issue I was like have you tried a BKR8e and hes like they don't make that and so on a so fourth, soooo .. after being schooled by the master, (and feeling like a noob again) I pulled out the stupid plugs and looked at them and they were the 5672A-8 .. so yea, don't use those in the K series... sorry for the miss-information.. I guess the best way to learn is to feel like an idiot cause now I've memorized every single NGK plug and model number for hondas 8) ...
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Post by Bindegal »

Heh, and I thought I was the only one being schooled by Master. :D The really annoying bit is that you can get BCPR8´s but only the Iridium variant which Master has taught me specifically to avoid.

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Post by Bugermass »

haha. .
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Post by Bugermass »

haha. .
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Post by Coupe-r »

Intteresting reading. For a stock B18C5 JDM (11:1) what heat range would you recommend? I track race the car. And can anyone tell me how to read plugs and if I need to go colder, hotter, richer or leaner? Generally black is rich, white is hot (i notice factory the plugs run white anyways) school me someone Currently using NGK IX plugs in the 7 heat range. BKR7EIX-11 I beleive. 1997 JDM honda Integra Type R motor.

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Post by Bugermass »

The factory plugs run white cause they are generally too hot and all the fuel/carbon gets burnt off the plug.. i'd go with a set of 5671A-8s .. They are part number 4554. Try those run em hard for a track day and look at them compared to your stockers. If you post some good pics I can point out what your looking for on your plugs..
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Post by xenocron »

Bugermass wrote:The factory plugs run white cause they are generally too hot and all the fuel/carbon gets burnt off the plug.. i'd go with a set of 5671A-8s .. They are part number 4554. Try those run em hard for a track day and look at them compared to your stockers. If you post some good pics I can point out what your looking for on your plugs..
8's are way too cold in my opinion for an NA car. 6's or 7's in my opinion but really just look at where the mark is on the strap and determine if you need to go colder or hotter.
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Post by Coupe-r »

ok, yes 6 is stock and I went one step colder for racing so thats why I went with 7. Was also recommended this by some of the racers here in N.Z Please elaborate on this comment as I don't understand.
look at where the mark is on the strap and determine if you need to go colder or hotter.

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Post by Coupe-r »

NO matter i googled it
The \"Ground-Strap\" = Heat Range The \"Plug's Base-Ring\" = Jetting The \"Porcelain\" = signs of preignition/detonation
so about half way down the strap should be the colour, last time I looked the base ring was quite rich, but that was after town driving

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Post by Bugermass »

umm... no . .. depending on where you look online, you will get about 10 different ideas when it comes to reading plugs, and they tend to contradict each other. 8s are NOT too cold.. I run 9s in some all motor cars with 12.5:1 + compression. Reading plugs is an art form and it really takes alot of practise.. If you have a plug that is too hot, you can be running 10:1 A/F and the insulator will look clean (which is one of your fuel indicators).. If you have too cold a plug you could be running 14.7:1A/F on top end WOT and your plug could have tons of carbon build up and look like its running to rich.. You have to combine different indicators on the plug to determine A: Proper Heat range (has to be correctly chosen or reading the plugs are useless) B: Idle Fueling C: WOT Fueling D: Ignition Timing This is from what I have learned from experimenting Selecting the proper heat range in most important.. To know if you have the right heat range there are 3 indicators that you must collectivly observe. First is the threads on the plug. You will notice the threading on the plug will have a color change from heat. You must clean the plug with some kinda of solvent to see this properly. Often combustion gasses will sneak past the crush washer and get on the threads and will look like its hotter than it really is, you HAVE to clean it first and look at the color change from heat.. You should have 2-3 threads OR LESS of heat tempered threads. You also have to look at the insulator.. You can't see it with your naked eye, you need a magnifying glass. Look at the porcelin and see if its smooth and glassy looking. If it is then this indicates that its too hot, OR that your experiencing det, also look down the insulator at the base of the plug you should see a greyish ring that indicates fueling.. If you know your running 12.0:1 A/F and theres just a tiny little fuel ring then your probably too hot, and the plugs self cleaning is burning off your fuel indicator. Also if the plugs are too hot the ground straps CAN show complete color change. So you have to kinda combine the info.. If your running a 6 in a N/A car and you have little or no fuel ring, your wideband says 12.8:1 you have 4 threads that are color changed and your ground straps are completely color changed or have color change almost to the threads then your plugs are too hot.. If you have a 8 and you have a thick fuel ring with 1 thread thats got color your running 13.5:1 A/F, then your plug may be too cold. If your threads are showing a 2-3 color changed range and your fuel ring is tiny but compeltely circles the insulator, your wideband shows 13.5:1, your insulator is not glazed and a good white or light tan color.. THEN you have the correct heat range.. At this point you can use the color indication on your ground straps to determine cylinder temps from ignition.. if you have perfect ignition timing your ground straps should be color about 3/4 the way.. YOU HAVE TO CLEAN THE PLUG FIRST.. Don't mistake deposits as color change. Once you have the proper ehat range you can use the color change indicator on the plugs to determin individual cylinder ignition trims.. Also you can compare fuel ring depths/thickness to determine if you need to trim fuel on a per cylinder basis. These things can be very helpfull in know what your engine is ACTUALLY doing... Just cause your wideband says the fuel is good doesn't mean that its good on all cylinder exactly the same. But if you have the proper heat range plug you can compare indicators between cylinders and trim out fueling and timing.. You may have 1 cylinder thats running too hot and too lean, and because your wideband is the sum of all cylinders, when you tuned it you ended up with 3 over rich cylinders and 1 sightly lean, or vis versus. So by using the plugs you can see which cylinders are lean/rich and trim the fueling.. Then once you get them all the same you can lean out/richen up the over fuel and you'll probably pickup a few extra HP.. Same thing goes for timing.. Once you have proper heat range plugs installed you can compare the color change on the ground straps and adjust timing individually to get them all the same.. This too can get your some extra HP and even save your boosted motor from melt down.. You may have thought you found MBT on the dyno, but what you didn't know is that while overall you have MBT, you could have 1 cylinder that is past it by about 2-3 degress.. By reading the plugs you can correct that cylinder then you may even be able to add another .5 deg overall on a boost motor and pickup another 10HP or 50HP depending on how much boost your running.. So its very important to have plugs that are the proper heat range.. Motors can run fine with too hot plugs and they can run with too cold plugs, but if you want to get the most out of your tune you need the right heat range so you can effectively use the plugs indicators to fine tune out those last few HP.. Also one thing that I have noticed is that if your running too hot of a plug you can loose HP just from the plug being to hot.. Too hot a plug can cause mild detonation that may not be detectable, detonation results in an un-uniform ineffecient burn that can rob power.. I've had all motor cars that made 195HP on a brand new set of 8s, pop in a 9 and bam 200HP.. Had turbo cars, low boost running 7s, making 250HP, put in an 8 made 265. Did my individual cylinder trims for fuel and timing and made 270.. Widebands and Dynos can tell you alot, but spark plugs can tell you more, and they never lie. A really good use for reading plugs is on the track.. If your running a car out on the track and you don't have a wideband, you can make fueling and timing adjustments for that night based on what the plugs tell you.. But once again they HAVE to be the right heat range FIRST, or else they are pretty much useless as indicators.. All this info if from me just messin with stuff and reading and trying different things out.. I'm not claiming I'm an expert, But try these ideas out for yourself and see how it works for you.. If you find out somthing more let me know I'm always looking to learn somthing new.
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Post by Bugermass »

my post got cut off... :( Same thing goes for timing. Just cause your sitting at MBT on the dyno doesn't mean that you can't make more power.. If you can read your plugs, you may find a cylinder thats running hotter than the rest. You can back out timing on that cylinder so it matches the others and then at that point you may be able to add more timing over all and pickup another couple HP.. Also I've seen that if your running to hot a plug you can also loose power from mild detonation.. It may not be detectable but it can still rob power. I've had all motor cars making like 195HP with 7s put in an 8 made 200.. Applied individual trims made 205.. Same thing with boost but the returns on power are usually bigger. try it for yourself.. Plugs are also a good tool for tuning at the track.. if you have chosen plugs with the proper heat range, you can make adjustments based on the timing/fuel idicators without having a dyno, datalogging or a wideband.. Key here is YOU MUST HAVE THE PROPER HEAT RANGE, or reading the plugs is useless.. I'm not claiming to be an expert, so use this infomation as a guideline for your own testing. And if you find anything new to add to this let me know cause I'm always looking for new info..
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Post by Coupe-r »

Thank you very much, the most important thing I have learnt is correct plug heat range before reading. Many sites tell you how to read the plug if its the wrong heat range, maybe they said they same as you.
8s are NOT too cold.. I run 9s in some all motor cars with 12.5:1 + compression
My motor is stock 11:1 Type R motor so I guess 7's is probably perfect for me. One thing that you could mention (but I will). To read plugs don't you have to clean them start the car and do a big WOT run then kill the motor and pull the plugs. Or doesn't this matter so much on fuel injected cars

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Post by Bugermass »

I could be mistaken but I think 7s are stock on a Type-R.. usually I'll tune the car with a new set of plugs, then when I've done as much as I can or I\"m gonna do, I'll throw in another brand new set and do a few hard pulls, remove and check the plugs.. From that point I make any final adjustments.. Yeah any med to hard part throttle action will affect how the plug reads, so do your hard pull then coast it if you can, or drive it very very lightly and check plugs asap..
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