Big Power Figures & Spark Plugs

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BRMS
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Big Power Figures & Spark Plugs

Post by BRMS »

Im curious what heat range and gappings tuners are having successful horsepower figures and still able to have consistant power. Just thought someone may share their ideas and thoughts about forced inducion and plugs. We're Currently using NGK 7173 \"8\"s @ .022 gapp. and plugs look really good. We got 585 horsepower on 27-29 psi. 110 Torco.

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Synoptic
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Post by Synoptic »

It all depends on the setup. More dense the mixxture is, more you will need to gap the plugs. Personally, I do not gap the plugs (should I ?) until I'm starting to get missfires. I also check the temp indicator on the spark plug to make sure I do not install tooc old or too hot plugs on a daily driver car.
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Post by Bugermass »

I read the plugs to select the proper heat range and don't change the gap unless I absolutly have to, to stop missfireing.
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Post by hackish »

I think .022 is a little small for the gap, especially if you're running a non-stock ignition system which given your power levels you should be. I'd aim for about 0.028-0.030 if it's not misfiring. -Michael

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Post by alpha »

Friends and I have had to run some DSM's as low as .017 :P Oh ... Honda's. I usually start with .028 - .030 and work my way down if I have to. As far as heat range. A lot of variables but ... 200whp - 400whp 7's. 400whp - 500whp 8's. 500whp - 600whp 9's. 600+whp 10's. That's very general though. Had a car last Sunday want 9's in cylinders 1, 2 and 4 I think it was. And it was fine with an 8 in cylinder 3
- Brotherz Racing (Dynojet 424X) - 4610 Lois Ave Tampa, FL 33614 - Shop: 813.870.7223 Tuning: 727.505.1423

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BRMS
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Post by BRMS »

Im curious if the tight gap is my issue. on the inertia dyno with .022 gap the car makes good power. here of late, at the track its breaking up it seems.. guess ill put a set of .030 8's back in and run tomorrow on the dyno. being a non loading dyno may be determing my results. the race gas keeps them glazed, but no Detonation signs.. @ .022 . .

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Post by Bugermass »

alpha wrote:Friends and I have had to run some DSM's as low as .017 :P Oh ... Honda's. I usually start with .028 - .030 and work my way down if I have to. As far as heat range. A lot of variables but ... 200whp - 400whp 7's. 400whp - 500whp 8's. 500whp - 600whp 9's. 600+whp 10's. That's very general though. Had a car last Sunday want 9's in cylinders 1, 2 and 4 I think it was. And it was fine with an 8 in cylinder 3
WoW Are you serious? 200-400WHP you use 7s?!?!? Do you know how to read plugs? I've runs 9s in 200HP cars.. Did you know there are different levels of detonation, and lower levels of det can be cause by too hot a plug and may not even show up on a dyno chart, but its still destructive none the less. Do this next time you tune a N/A high CR car, its most noticable there.. Tune it with say a 7, tune it to the edge squeeze every last HP out you can. Going by your formula that 7 should be adequate. Not drop in a 8 or even a 9 and see how much extra HP you get just from running a colder plug. It'll make more. That lower level of undetectable detonation will cause you to hit a wall HP wise, Your hitting resistance from low level det. (not in every case but with a 7 in a high CR 200HP N/A setup its highly likely) When you put the colder plug in it'll reduce the amounts of lower level det and you'll gain HP. Thats why its VERy important to know how to read plugs properly and to be very picky about heat range selection. Also If you have to run diff heat ranges in different cylinders you have bigger issues.. You need to figure out whats causing it.. Your better off using individual cylinder trims than running different heat range plugs. Anyways just my thoughts. .
Chris Delgado Tun'd Performance Houston Texas 713-962-8262

Joey Misanthropy
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Post by Joey Misanthropy »

The plugs aren't glazed, that greenish is how the Torco likes to burn. Goforth's plugs and exhaust ports are grey from the 116 he uses, it's pretty crazy and doesn't stain your fingers like black pumpgas soot does. For the BRMS car: .028-.030\" ran fine on low boost, started breaking up at 5K in high boost when pushing past the high 400's. This was the region that I bighammered the first MVC coil with too much dwell to get past. Brandon/BRMS replicated these gappings and symptoms earlier tonight on the dyno. There is nothing wrong with the plug gap. Guys, there is a problem with this car and I would appreciate any advice you could offer. The 585 whp dyno was a fluke, the second dyno session I had with the car when we were trying for 600 it became somewhat variable in output past 525-540 whp. With how the boost was tapering off I chalked it up to wierdness because the wastegate spring was maxed out and boost was tapering from 31 psi to 26-27 at BEST. Ever since then, even with a second wastegate spring added and rock solid low boost of 19 psi, the car still tapers badly and power in high boost varies a whole hell of a lot. I can replicate 38 psi tapering to 30-31 psi in the 520-560 whp range with a few 570 whp flukes. Plugs look clean. The car would run a little rich in high boost at the track. Brandon was piloting the car to consistent 7.5's on low boost all night long, and got a 7.25 out of the car on the last run of the night with a little toggling of the high boost at the end of the track - fast forward to the following week and the car is down on power and variable in a dismally familiar way. Datalogs for the car went from a perfect 12:1 to 11.25-11.6 with a few 11.8's in VTEC and under boost... low cam logged some stray 10.x AFRs, too. I've been screaming boost leak for the past couple weeks, but they pressurized the system and found no leaks. Boost taper, variability in power output, now the tune is shifting on me. Engine is clean and has great compression and leakdown. Any clues? On a semi-OT note, hackish, the ignition system is non-stock, and frankly I wish the Digital-6 box wasn't there. Using a conventional coil there is no use for the thing except to slew the IGO signal, yay! Also, Chris, I can put you in touch with a 9 second car that runs BRK7E-11 and has for a couple years. It floored the hell out of me to hear about it, I really really want a look at those plugs! I've seen too much plug wierdness to argue with what another man does... as long as it's holding together. BRMS had a \"fuck it\" turbo B16 setup they fielded last summer built out of spare stuff laying around their shop that layed a milquetoast 230 to the ground, and wanted a mixture of 7s, one 8, and one 9 plug as well as wierd individual cyl trims. :?
Regards, Joseph Davis eCtune Team eCtune Authorized Tuner Location: Asheville, NC USA

Bugermass
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Post by Bugermass »

Mabey I just havn't encountered it yet, but it just seem to me that if the cylinders are that off from each other, then theres other problems in the setup, in my opinion I think its better to try to fix or change whatevers causing the inconsistancies cylinder wise, rather than try to kinda rig it right with a bunch of different plugs.. Just my opinion. I've tuned alot of cars and without actually seeing that everythings done right and actually seeing the tune the thought of a motor being that off sounds totally rediculous. From how you describe it, it sounds like your injectors may be off from each other quite a bit, I've had simular issues and send the injectors in to get test and had them be off by quite a large margin. But these are mostely my opinions and I've definatly seen alot, but not everything :D .. I'd like to see those plugs too. The issues with your other car loosing power and boost, what kind of turbo are you running?(trim,A/R) and whats the motor setup? and at what RPM are you loosing boost at?
Chris Delgado Tun'd Performance Houston Texas 713-962-8262

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Post by Joey Misanthropy »

When I said it was a @fuck it@ build, it was a worn out bottom end with a bunch of used parts thrown on it. In that case you do whatever you have to in order to hold it together. As for the engine at hand, it is an 81mm LS/VTEC, GT35R, and boost tapers badly from 6000-6500 rpms onward.
Regards, Joseph Davis eCtune Team eCtune Authorized Tuner Location: Asheville, NC USA

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Post by alpha »

Bugermass wrote: WoW Are you serious? 200-400WHP you use 7s?!?!? Do you know how to read plugs? I've runs 9s in 200HP cars Anyways just my thoughts. .
alpha wrote:Friends and I have had to run some DSM's as low as .017 :P Oh ... Honda's. I usually start with .028 - .030 and work my way down if I have to. As far as heat range. A lot of variables but ... 200whp - 400whp 7's. 400whp - 500whp 8's. 500whp - 600whp 9's. 600+whp 10's. That's very general though. Had a car last Sunday want 9's in cylinders 1, 2 and 4 I think it was. And it was fine with an 8 in cylinder 3
I have not tuned an NA car in quite some time. I have not tuned anything under 300whp in quite some time. I should have went more indepth but dont always have time. Thanks for the friendly reply and your thoughts
- Brotherz Racing (Dynojet 424X) - 4610 Lois Ave Tampa, FL 33614 - Shop: 813.870.7223 Tuning: 727.505.1423

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Post by Bugermass »

Joey Misanthropy wrote:When I said it was a @f*** it@ build, it was a worn out bottom end with a bunch of used parts thrown on it. In that case you do whatever you have to in order to hold it together. As for the engine at hand, it is an 81mm LS/VTEC, GT35R, and boost tapers badly from 6000-6500 rpms onward.
Sounds like your out of CFM on the turbo.. Its only good for about 600HP, and if your using conservative timming you'll hit the CFM limit before you hit the est 600HP.. With that size motor, 31PSI is probably pushing the turbo past where its efficient.. If the turbos over spinning it could be causing it to taper off like that .. Just some ideas.. Also sorry if I offended anyone, somtimes when I type stuff I sound like an ass, only intended for my posts to be helpfull..
Chris Delgado Tun'd Performance Houston Texas 713-962-8262

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BRMS
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Post by BRMS »

I did some comparisons today: Using NGK 7173 8 Heat Range Gap .30 @ 19psi 440 / 290 (new plugs) Gap .25 @ 19psi 415 / 276 2nd pass Gap .22 @ 19psi 396 / 297 3rd pass Gap .25 @ 25psi 487 / 342 4th pass Using NGK 4554 8 Heat Range Gap .30 @ 19psi 466 / 316 5th pass (new plugs) Gap .28 @ 19psi 449 / 312 6th pass Gap .28 @ 25psi 538 / 382 7th pass Gap .27 @ 19psi 427 / 287 8th pass Gap .27 @ 25psi 542 / 392 9th pass Gap .25 @ 19psi 427 / 294 10th pass Gap .25 @ 25psi 512 / 344 11th pass coolant temps @ 190-200 Degz.

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Post by Bugermass »

Whats the difference between the 2 plugs? Did you try with a 9? I looked em up on NGKs site.. Not much info.. Very little details. .
Chris Delgado Tun'd Performance Houston Texas 713-962-8262

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Post by Garrett »

Bugermass wrote:Whats the difference between the 2 plugs? Did you try with a 9? I looked em up on NGKs site.. Not much info.. Very little details. .
I want to know it too

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