Someone help me read my plugs?

confUsed · Post by **confUsed** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:03 pm

Okey, so I'm kind of a noob when it comes to tuning. I mean, I've read alot about it on the web, most of it I understand, some of it I dont. So this winter I installed a t3 .42/.48 on my stock d16z6. I used the shiny program for a while, and took it to a local tuner. He retarded the shit out of it, and I ended up having 6 degrees less timing at peak rpm than the most conservative tune I found at the web (10 degrees @ 11psi). I took it to the circuit track for some fun, and two times in a row my exhaust manifold cracked (not the welds, but the pipe itself, 2mm mild steel). So my guess is that my egt's where up there. So last month I decided I want to try this myself, bought eCtune and made a DIY detcan. I'm not looking for squeezing every last whp out of my engine, I just want something thats not blowing up because of detonation, but at the same time doesnt melt my exhaust valves or manifold. I also want to learn something out of it, so I dont have to hand it over to a tuner to be safe everytime I change a piece of the setup. So I made a basemap with flat curves like someone in here was talking about and 1 degrees retard per psi. I'm aiming for 11'ish afr in boost. I made some pulls today, and got the afr pretty stable. I can pick up valvetrain noise very clearly in my detcan, and as I accelerate the sound gets kinda louder, but nothing like the rice-dropping-on-tinfoil, or hammer-hitting-the-piston sounds. I havent really heard detonation before, so I'm not really sure what I'm listening for either :/ So on the last pull today I turned the ignition close to 7000 rpm, and the result is in the pictures. I've been using these plugs for a while now so I dont know if its possible to read anything out of them. I also had been idling for like half an hour before I did the pull. The plugs are ngk bkr7e. #1 plug:

#3 plug:

The graph and my high ignition map:

Are they supposed to look like this or is this detonation?? I have seen traces of those small particles on my plugs for a long time, also when I was on my crome tune, but when I look at it through the macro mode, it looks kinda nasty... Help anyone?

sewell94 · Post by **sewell94** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:08 pm

Install a set of fresh plugs, then do a pull, put a pic of one of those up. Those things look well used:)

confUsed · Post by **confUsed** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:21 pm

Okey, I'll try to get a fresh set tomorrow

They have been through a tuning session, two circuit trackdays and maybe 5000km of street use, so I guess its timne for a new set anyway...

sewell94 · Post by **sewell94** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:55 pm

what you do is buy 1 set plus some extras, put a fresh set in, then any time you want to read the plug just put a new plug in whatever cylinder you want to read, so then you don;t have to change all of them. (assuming all cylinders are tuned evenly)

cbustuner · Post by **cbustuner** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:53 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQldxxweebw&feature=user skip to about 1:35. He gives you some insights about reading the timing marks on the ground strap.I would also get another set of fresh plugs like everyone else said another good article on it http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/r ... plugs.html

sloshy · Post by **sloshy** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:16 pm

don't know how accurate this is but i found it, any of the og tuners want to school us you guys are welcome. http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html

Post by **Bugermass** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:42 pm

Haha thats my video LOL from WAY BACK. . I\"m gonna be making a new one soon..

confUsed · Post by **confUsed** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:05 pm

Okey, so I got two sets with fresh plugs today. I let the car warm up on the old plugs, put in a fresh set and went out and did a pull. Here's what cyl #3 looked like:

I did another three pulls and checked the plugs again, and here's the results: #1

#2

#3

#4

I noticed my AFR's were slightly higher just as vtec activated, but never leaner than 12. I have added a little fuel in the column now, just to be safe

Here's the graph:

Does this look safe, or not? I'll read through the article and watch the vids and hopefully understand a little more, thanks

Edit: Okey, I'll take a wild guess after looking at the links

-Timing looks pretty decent -Something weird is going on in cyl #1...? -Too cold plugs or too lean wot (I have calibrated my LC-1 twice hanging in the air, and got the same results, but my sensor might be bad, perhaps?)

greasemonkee · Post by **greasemonkee** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:43 pm

Take a well lit pic of the ditch.

confUsed · Post by **confUsed** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:26 pm

This was the best I managed to get. Its kinda hard because the flash is in the wrong angle when the camera is so close to the object... Hope its a little better?

greasemonkee · Post by **greasemonkee** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:41 pm

IMO that looks really lean and timing looks quite conservative. Remember that a wideband is a supplement. The idea of using a wideband alone to set optimal AFR's without a dyno is BS. Use it as a reference and not for precise #'s I think you're using a good approach though. I would add fuel and gradually give it some more timing. That's just me and I'm no expert so take it for what it's worth.

confUsed · Post by **confUsed** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:54 pm

OK, I'll try to give it some more fuel and see if I can get some more color to it. The weird thing is that the last time I was to a dyno and had a tuner map it for me, we ended up at about the same readings (on my WB) that I'm running now using his \"professional\" WB. And my plugs have always had less color than other plugs I've seen, even when it was completely stock. Too bad dynos are so ridiculus expensive around here, I would love to get a chance to play around on one for a day or two :/

Post by **Bugermass** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:09 pm

what plugs are those?? To me it looks like too lean and a bit too much timing, BUT if the plugs are too hot of a heat range then it would explain why they look that way even though your wideband is reading richer... Clean one of the plugs really good with solvent, get all the crap off down to the metal, and take pictures again, be sure to get shots of the threads.. I need to see how far the metal has been tempered on the plug, I can tell if its too hot at that point..

sewell94 · Post by **sewell94** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:37 pm

See the rainbow color around where the ground strap is welded on, thats either a sign of not enough timing, and the heat back backing up into the plug or a plug thats way to hot. Do you have any popping while doing a pull ? Thats normally a sign of not enough timing. But from what i see, you need to go to a colder plug, add some of fuel, and take 3 degrees of timing out. Then show us some shots of those plugs after the changes. The plugs being too hot really skew reading the timing on the plugs, so its better to start conserative BY going to a colder plug and pulling some timing, then work back up from there.

confUsed · Post by **confUsed** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:32 pm

Those plugs are bkr7e11's like the old ones, two steps colder than the stock ones(?). Burgermass: I'll try to get some pictures when I get home from work today, but I did drive the car back home to the garage with the plugs, but I guess you can still read on the threads to see if its too hot if I get it clean, right? Just for a reference; If I'm running a too hot plug, which one is correct, the spark plug that tells me I'm running too lean or the WB that tells me I'm OK? sewell94: No I cant really hear any popping when I do the pull. Sounds good to me, but then again my ears are not trained for this

I thought I was pretty conservative, using 10.8-11's in af and 1 deg/psi, but I guess every engine is different and this might be too much for mine. I dont think I'll get enough time to get another set of plugs and doing some pulls before the weekend, though. BTW, thanks guys, this really helps me alot. Maybe I'll understand some of this one day. And I guess I'll skip the trackday this friday, haha. Dont think my engine would have enjoyed that right now...