My HHO Cell

[Orthello]

Well I know thet hydrgen has a wide flashpoint so it should'nt improve the octane level and may cause super lean conditions under decel where it may be better to have no fuel at all because of oxidation.

good point

[Bugermass]

AHH HAaa you kinda said somthing there that has somthing to do with it

[HiProfile]

Most unofficial tests are based on fuel economy, not power. Hydrogen isn't all that great at power production, unless you have some good ol' liquid refridgeration of it and a little liquid O2 to mix with it... Given that you are injecting an ideal mixture into the intake (2 h2 + o2 = 2 h2o), you are essentially depriving the intake of space for 'normal' oxygen, which is kinda like deoxygenating the intake air. You then have to run more throttle (which ends up sapping less power due to throttle plate restriction). I hate having to deal with so many variables (how the o2 sensor reads this all, intake restriction, reation of both fuels, etc etc), which is the main reason I can only roughly guess. I wasn't awake enough during chemistry to be able to work all the formulas with fuel density, energy, etc. One peice of concrete info, the worst efficiency for gasoline engines has always been low-load/idle The engine has to use some of its power to pull the vacuum created, and it gets huge savings if it were to cut gasoline usage at that point to almost nothing and idle on HHO alone. You have TONS of timing to pull at idle too, and detonation with such low of a load will barely happen. Even if it did, peak cylinder pressures at -20\" Hg are crazy-low so you won't hurt much but HHO usage. Idle further lends itself to running very lean. My 8.4:1 D16 was able to idle above 20:1 AFR's when I had a setting wrong I found this looking up certain things: http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydrogen ... dranox.php They claim that by not injecting the oxygen, you get less issues. I recall in military use (submarines) with the right setup, you can infact seperate hydrogen from the oxygen at the time of electrolysis - IIRC the two seperate into disolved ions; then the oxygen comes out of solution by the anode, and hydrogen by the cathode. I saw it being done on TV. Mainly what this points out: nobody seems to really know wtf HHO helps the most with. BTW You could easily program ectune to turn on/off the injection via a GPO and a solenoid valve. Basicly a fuel cut for the HHO generator, although I'd think (given my limited HHO-Gen info) you'd want to cut the power to it instead.

[HiProfile]

CLIFFs for my above screen-door post: best way to find out is hypothesize and test!

[Orthello]

you'd want to cut the power to it instead.

That's for sure. Else you need to use a presure regulator and presurized storage for HHO. And again... HHO is pretty hazardous as it is stored in a stoich mixture and under presure. But the still.... if you want to use it for idle (without normal fuel) you'll need a small amount of HHO in a storage. Because it won't be a self sustaining setup. It takes more energy to produce HHO then the burnin gof HHO delivers you. If you want more HHO, you need more current, you need more power from the alternator, you need more power from the engine, you need more air, you need more HHO, you need more current, you need more power from the alternator.... etc. etc. etc. Also when you want to create a small buffer with HHO you still need the additional energy from the engine. So during the build up of the buffer, your milage will drop. In one way or another... you need additional energy to produce enough HHO. There is just one way to have less loss of energy, and that is only produce HHO during decaleration/fuel cut. Producing HHO takes more enegry then the burning of HHO delivers you. That is a fact. Period. The one and only way it might maybe help you to get better milage is because it makes fuel burn more efficiënt. But then still... the fuel should burn much more efficient to overcome the energy it took to produce the HHO. Sorry for beeing so F****** sceptic.

[HiProfile]

About it taking more energy to make - is that an actual fact? I know electrolysis is anywhere from 50-94% efficient, and the alternator is probably an effective 60-75% efficient. The difference is the hydrogen's energy is harnessed more efficiently than normally expected, in a pressuized reation chaimber (the cylinder). What the scientific sources don't mention is how the hydrogen's energy is calculated. You aren't using hydrogen alone to move the motor, you are using it to supplament it. One reason I ask is because this isn't some electric supercharger that sucks energy to blow air (uses the energy made to power itself, 0 gain). You are using electricity to seperate a chemical that will be used in a highpressure chemical reaction. I can't think exactly how to word it. Essentially you're not blowing on your own sail - you are spending energy to unfurl a 2nd sail, if that makes sense. I might make one of these for my beater, since I have some spare stainless. If I get above 42mpg (given the way I drive), I'd call it a success. Although I do have other pressing issues 1st.

[Orthello]

Essentially you're not blowing on your own sail

Actualy you do.... sort of. You need energy to produce HHO. This energy is provide by the alternator. The more energy an alternator needs to deliver, the more resistance/drag it shows to keep it turning at a sertain speed. Now think about the following statement: "Some racecars only have there alternator active/enabled/charging when braking" (Why would that be?) Without HHO the alternator is used to deliver electric energy to the ECU and coil. Which is just 'a few' amps. With HHO the alternator also needs to deliver electric energy to the HHO cell. You say that will be something lik 20A? Well, doesn't matter how much it is, the alternator will show more drag/resistance to keep it turning anyway. So... more energy is needed to keep it turning and overcome that extra drag/resistance. So the extra amount of energy to overcome the extra drag/resistance from the alternator (to power the HHO cell) must be delivered by the engine. This means that the amount of HHO that is produced must be just enough (or more) to give the engine that extra energy. Now I have some questions... 1) How much HHO is needed to overcome this extra drag/resistance of the alternator when it is delevering the additional 20A for the HHO cell? (1.6LPM?) 2) How much HHO will the cell produce at 20A? (1.0LPM / 2.0LPM?) Now see why you sort of blowing on you own sails? And then I'm not even talking about the way you get the energy out of the HHO. Is it undergoing a chemical reaction with the normal fuel? What kind of chemical reaction? Is there any form of thermic energy involved in this reaction? What other byproducts will show up as a result of this reaction? Or is it just mixing with the air and fuel and then burns? Never the less... HHO (brown's) is a highly explosive mixture of H2 and 02. Especially when under presure!

[JaredKaragen]

Don't forget the BTU/power ratio between the 2 fuels; your treating hydrogen as if it produces the same amount of energy as an equal amount of petrol; it's like saying a propane vehicle will run just the same if it were run on Hydrogen... Hydrogen puts out more energy plain and simple; I do see your point about it drawing amps; but I myself believe you would be able to run a generator off just HHO... and using it's output to power the cell, you could get it to self-sustain... your cell just needs to be efficient enough. Again; go look at the JNlabs findings.. he did it.

[Orthello]

Don't forget the BTU/power ratio between the 2 fuels; your treating hydrogen as if it produces the same amount of energy as an equal amount of petrol; it's like saying a propane vehicle will run just the same if it were run on Hydrogen... Hydrogen puts out more energy plain and simple *1 I do see your point about it drawing amps; but I myself believe you would be able to run a generator off just HHO... and using it's output to power the cell, you could get it to self-sustain *2 ... your cell just needs to be efficient enough. Again; go look at the JNlabs findings.. he did it.

*1 True.. Hydrogen puts out more energy then normal petrol. But.. It takes at least the same amount of energy (in practice even more!) to create the hydrogen from water! If it is the combination of hydorgen and fuel then it can only be an combustion efficiency thing. But then the efficiency should be improved that much that it also compensates the losses (15% to 20%) experienced in the proces of creating hydrogen from water. So efficiency should improve very much, to gain positive results! *2 If the engine/HHO cell combination is self sustaining, then we are talking about perpetual motion. No single scientist ever achieved creating a perpetual motion. If you guys do with such simpel cell, you deserve a Nobel prize!

[elevation]

[You need energy to produce HHO. This energy is provide by the alternator.

You could possibly control the alternator like the HFs or complete a circuit to a second battery under deceleration or mess with field currant via brake switch. To help efficiency.

[Bugermass]

Do you realise how much fuel we waste every combustion cycle?? There is a great deal of unburnt fuel in each combustion cycle, thats why we have catalytic converters. Now take HHO Mainly the hydroigen with its much higher intensity burn chars and inject that into gasonline the burn it.. You now have a more intense spark kernel and this leads to a much more uniform/complete burn of the available fuel in the cylinder. So not only are you getting a small amount of energy from the burning of the hydrogen itself, your also recaliming the energy form the normally wasted fuel that would otherwise be burn in your cat and ejected into the envoronment.. It doesn't take that much hydrogen to cause this to happen. Also, dude 20amps isn't crap on an alternator. Try this.. Turn on your A/C your headlights and your windsheidl wipers.. DONE, 20 AMPS.. Let not mention some big ass stereos ppl have.. Just face the facts, ITS BEEN DONE, IT WORKS, and yes its not perfect but its being improved at a rapid pace. I\"m so tired of ppl being like well the forumlas prove it doesn't work.. DUDE You can't possibly calculate all the potential variables in the equation of HHO injection acurately without a super computer.. YOu can't jsut say it makes this amount of energy and it takes this much to make IT WORK WON'T.. There are so many other variables involved so put your math books away and just do some real world testing. This is why so many technologies are neverprogressed past somones basement experiments, because scientists will disscredit it with their formulas without fully understanding or exploring everything thats involved. I think this is called tunnel vision. . Its like the ppl who used to say a 4 cylinder will NEVER MAKE 1000HP, or NEVER SPOOL A 72MM Turbo.. Ok I'm done ranting.

[hackish]

When the fuel prices were up I had a stream of people who had ideas from pumping water into a generator and using that to power the pump to other assorted whacky things that could never work. The biggest thing you have to keep in mind is the first law of thermodynamics. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. When you understand that you will be able to look at this gadget and see it for what it is. If it really works then it's not as a direct result from burning the hydrogen and oxygen. Personally I'd like to see pure EV's so I wish someone would hurry up and design a super battery. Unfortunately think of what that might do to our industry... -Michael